Comments on: Constellation: The Internet ≅ Islam http://snarkmarket.com/2010/6249 The stomping grounds of Tim Carmody, Robin Sloan and Matt Thompson. It's a long-running conversation about media, journalism, technology, cities, culture, design, books, music, movies, the future and the past. Fri, 10 Feb 2012 01:58:56 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1 By: Tim Carmody http://snarkmarket.com/2010/6249/comment-page-1#comment-13561 Tim Carmody Tue, 07 Sep 2010 10:13:02 +0000 http://snarkmarket.com/?p=6249#comment-13561 The books I've been reading are really elliptical. <em>Paper Before Print</em> is about the writing/book traditions of the Middle East; <em>The Inner Touch</em> by Daniel Heller-Roazen is about how Greek philosophy got translated through to the Enlightenment through Arabic philosophers (specifically one idea, "the sense of sensation"); I've been reading as much Averröes as I can find; George Bataille's <em>The Accursed Share</em>, which is this totally weirdo (but at the same time totally great) book about "general economies," or what happens when nobody extracts or gobbles up a productive surplus, and the whole network just grows and grows. A very compelling take on the animal kingdom, Aztec sacrifice rituals, Islamic conquest, Stalinist expansion, and a half-dozen other things. The books I’ve been reading are really elliptical. Paper Before Print is about the writing/book traditions of the Middle East; The Inner Touch by Daniel Heller-Roazen is about how Greek philosophy got translated through to the Enlightenment through Arabic philosophers (specifically one idea, “the sense of sensation”); I’ve been reading as much Averröes as I can find; George Bataille’s The Accursed Share, which is this totally weirdo (but at the same time totally great) book about “general economies,” or what happens when nobody extracts or gobbles up a productive surplus, and the whole network just grows and grows. A very compelling take on the animal kingdom, Aztec sacrifice rituals, Islamic conquest, Stalinist expansion, and a half-dozen other things.

]]> By: anon http://snarkmarket.com/2010/6249/comment-page-1#comment-13540 anon Tue, 07 Sep 2010 06:03:49 +0000 http://snarkmarket.com/?p=6249#comment-13540 My understanding is very different from yours......... ----(Eastern)Christians and Jews were a part of the Arabian landscape...and the Quran addresses both these groups. Therefore, interaction and dialogue between groups happened from the very beginning of Muslim history. ----The philosophical debates happened because 1) The Muslims came into contact with sophisticated civilizations such as the Persians and the Egyptians---and needed to explain Islam to those who had questions----they did this by taking advantage of Greek knowledge (such as the Socratic dialogues...etc) and from this evolved the Kalam school of scholars. 2)As philosophical needs increased from merely question and answer to deeper questions---such as, is there free-will or predetermination----etc, as the debates became more sophisticated-----one side effect of this was determining the status of the Quran--and two opposing ideas came to be debated. -----"Muslim understanding of the Koran as the literal and uncreated Word of God has remained constant."--Technically, this is a correct statement, but does not reflect actual Muslim thought or practice. Though the Quran is considered the word of God, human agency is required to understand it. This function was initially provided by the Prophet(pbuh) and these are called the Hadith (sayings). How he implemented the teachings are the Sunnah and the Quran has always been understood with the understanding that historical context, hadith and sunnah lend meaning to it. This is called the "Tafsir" (commentary). (Neither the Torah, nor the Quran are read "raw" the way Christians read the Bible) ----"Inimitability"....the Quran is recited in Arabic because that is the language in which it was revealed. Translations in all languages are available and important because the Quran itself says it must be understood. The idea of inimitability comes from the Quran also---there are two challenges laid out by the Quran to those who say it is the work of man....1) the challenge to an individual to make a single surah (chapter) like that of the Quran (the smallest surah is only about 4 verses or so)....2) the challenge to a group to come up with 10 surahs like that of the Quran (the Quran has 114 surahs) Neither challenge has been met. ----When the Quran is recited in Arabic, it has a rythm, a harmony in it that can be soothing and appealing. ----Metaphorical/Literal----there are a couple of verses in the Quran that says that it is both literal ("clear") in some places, and metaphorical ("similitude") in others---and that one must pursue knowledge to understand. Therefore Muslims have always read the Quran with this understanding. My understanding is very different from yours.….….
—-(Eastern)Christians and Jews were a part of the Arabian landscape…and the Quran addresses both these groups. Therefore, interaction and dialogue between groups happened from the very beginning of Muslim history.
—-The philosophical debates happened because 1) The Muslims came into contact with sophisticated civilizations such as the Persians and the Egyptians—and needed to explain Islam to those who had questions—-they did this by taking advantage of Greek knowledge (such as the Socratic dialogues…etc) and from this evolved the Kalam school of scholars. 2)As philosophical needs increased from merely question and answer to deeper questions—such as, is there free-will or predetermination—-etc, as the debates became more sophisticated—–one side effect of this was determining the status of the Quran–and two opposing ideas came to be debated.
—–“Muslim understanding of the Koran as the literal and uncreated Word of God has remained constant.”–Technically, this is a correct statement, but does not reflect actual Muslim thought or practice. Though the Quran is considered the word of God, human agency is required to understand it. This function was initially provided by the Prophet(pbuh) and these are called the Hadith (sayings). How he implemented the teachings are the Sunnah and the Quran has always been understood with the understanding that historical context, hadith and sunnah lend meaning to it. This is called the “Tafsir” (commentary). (Neither the Torah, nor the Quran are read “raw” the way Christians read the Bible)
—-“Inimitability”.…the Quran is recited in Arabic because that is the language in which it was revealed. Translations in all languages are available and important because the Quran itself says it must be understood. The idea of inimitability comes from the Quran also—there are two challenges laid out by the Quran to those who say it is the work of man.…1) the challenge to an individual to make a single surah (chapter) like that of the Quran (the smallest surah is only about 4 verses or so).…2) the challenge to a group to come up with 10 surahs like that of the Quran (the Quran has 114 surahs) Neither challenge has been met.
—-When the Quran is recited in Arabic, it has a rythm, a harmony in it that can be soothing and appealing.
—-Metaphorical/Literal—-there are a couple of verses in the Quran that says that it is both literal (“clear”) in some places, and metaphorical (“similitude”) in others—and that one must pursue knowledge to understand. Therefore Muslims have always read the Quran with this understanding.

]]> By: Davis Shaver http://snarkmarket.com/2010/6249/comment-page-1#comment-13524 Davis Shaver Tue, 07 Sep 2010 01:50:57 +0000 http://snarkmarket.com/?p=6249#comment-13524 Ditto to Robin, I'd love to see the reading list. Ditto to Robin, I’d love to see the reading list.

]]> By: Robin http://snarkmarket.com/2010/6249/comment-page-1#comment-13523 Robin Tue, 07 Sep 2010 01:31:18 +0000 http://snarkmarket.com/?p=6249#comment-13523 Yeah, and re: Islam's explosive growth, early on: triumph & expansion became proof of the faith's legitimacy. It's like: "Um, clearly we are right, because we are winning." There's (maybe) an echo of that material validation in the internet boom: "Um, clearly we are right, because we are rich." In both cases: what happens when the growth slows, stagnates, or reverses? We know what happened (or is happening) with Islam. On the internet side, it's been interesting to see so many people so quickly abandon core principles like openness & decentralization, as the momentum and money have moved elsewhere, e.g. to the iPhone ecosystem. (I include myself among these people.) More broadly: what's on your history of Islam reading list? I read "No god but God" a while ago, and "Destiny Disrupted" more recently—which has (I think) one of the best introductions I've read in a long time, and which I still intend to transcribe for Snarkmarket sometime. Yeah, and re: Islam’s explosive growth, early on: triumph & expansion became proof of the faith’s legitimacy. It’s like: “Um, clearly we are right, because we are winning.”

There’s (maybe) an echo of that material validation in the internet boom: “Um, clearly we are right, because we are rich.”

In both cases: what happens when the growth slows, stagnates, or reverses? We know what happened (or is happening) with Islam. On the internet side, it’s been interesting to see so many people so quickly abandon core principles like openness & decentralization, as the momentum and money have moved elsewhere, e.g. to the iPhone ecosystem. (I include myself among these people.)

More broadly: what’s on your history of Islam reading list?

I read “No god but God” a while ago, and “Destiny Disrupted” more recently—which has (I think) one of the best introductions I’ve read in a long time, and which I still intend to transcribe for Snarkmarket sometime.

]]> By: Thomas http://snarkmarket.com/2010/6249/comment-page-1#comment-13522 Thomas Tue, 07 Sep 2010 00:48:12 +0000 http://snarkmarket.com/?p=6249#comment-13522 http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/print/1999/01/what-is-the-koran/4024/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/print/1999/01/what-is-the-koran/4024/

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