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	<title>Comments on: Expanding Standing</title>
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	<link>http://snarkmarket.com/2010/6050</link>
	<description>The stomping grounds of Tim Carmody, Robin Sloan and Matt Thompson. It&#039;s a long-running conversation about media, journalism, technology, cities, culture, design, books, music, movies, the future and the past.</description>
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		<title>By: Tim Carmody</title>
		<link>http://snarkmarket.com/2010/6050/comment-page-1#comment-13027</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Carmody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Aug 2010 04:51:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkmarket.com/?p=6050#comment-13027</guid>
		<description>Yes. It&#039;s a complex issue where no general principle always &quot;feels&quot; right. (Example: You keep arguing with me on both sides of the same question.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes. It’s a complex issue where no general principle always “feels” right. (Example: You keep arguing with me on both sides of the same question.)</p>
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		<title>By: echan</title>
		<link>http://snarkmarket.com/2010/6050/comment-page-1#comment-13023</link>
		<dc:creator>echan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Aug 2010 01:24:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkmarket.com/?p=6050#comment-13023</guid>
		<description>In many cases, the &quot;very limited ability of humans&quot; to speak up in Court is actually the more progressive, and beneficial option.  In particular with the example of zoning, an overbroad approach to standing would lead to tons of NIMBYism, since the groups who often have the resources to sue are the groups who want to maintain a status quo that benefits them against a newer group. In SF right now, we&#039;re dealing with predominately white and wealthy neighborhoods who are fighting the building of long-term housing for former foster kids under the guise of zoning ordinances.  Berkeley, CA is another place that has taken this NIMBYism too an extreme through this broad view of standing.  It&#039;s nearly impossible to get anything built or altered there, leading to inflated property values.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In many cases, the “very limited ability of humans” to speak up in Court is actually the more progressive, and beneficial option.  In particular with the example of zoning, an overbroad approach to standing would lead to tons of NIMBYism, since the groups who often have the resources to sue are the groups who want to maintain a status quo that benefits them against a newer group. In SF right now, we’re dealing with predominately white and wealthy neighborhoods who are fighting the building of long-term housing for former foster kids under the guise of zoning ordinances.  Berkeley, CA is another place that has taken this NIMBYism too an extreme through this broad view of standing.  It’s nearly impossible to get anything built or altered there, leading to inflated property values.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul E.</title>
		<link>http://snarkmarket.com/2010/6050/comment-page-1#comment-13006</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul E.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Aug 2010 05:28:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkmarket.com/?p=6050#comment-13006</guid>
		<description>&quot;Try­ing to cut off stand­ing is always a rhetor­i­cal move. It’s a lawyer’s move. It’s a power move. Some­times it’s legit­i­mate, some­times it isn’t. Some­times even when it’s tech­ni­cally ille­git­i­mate it gets passed-off any­ways. But you can’t deny that it’s really important.&quot;

I like this conclusion to your discussion about expanding standing. You should include it in your original blogpost as well as the story you gave about Fattah and Nutter. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“Try­ing to cut off stand­ing is always a rhetor­i­cal move. It’s a lawyer’s move. It’s a power move. Some­times it’s legit­i­mate, some­times it isn’t. Some­times even when it’s tech­ni­cally ille­git­i­mate it gets passed-off any­ways. But you can’t deny that it’s really important.”</p>
<p>I like this conclusion to your discussion about expanding standing. You should include it in your original blogpost as well as the story you gave about Fattah and Nutter. :)</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Carmody</title>
		<link>http://snarkmarket.com/2010/6050/comment-page-1#comment-13002</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Carmody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Aug 2010 01:33:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkmarket.com/?p=6050#comment-13002</guid>
		<description>Well, this is the real trick, isn&#039;t it? In the Prop 8 case, the state of California could have chosen to appeal the decision, and would have had clear standing to do so. And the standing of governments rests on different criteria from non-state entities; violation of its laws, loss of revenue, damage to things under its territorial jurisdiction, which is quite different from its property. 

I&#039;ll give a local example. In Philadelphia, it used to be the case that any taxpayer could bring a suit against anyone who&#039;d violated zoning or building law. So if a developer decided to add an extra story to a building, or erect giant billboards in neighborhoods, there were clear ways for citizens to force them to comply with the law. A series of decisions pushed back standing to the point where if you can&#039;t show that you materially suffer from a building violation -- even if you&#039;re on an adjacent property -- you can&#039;t bring a suit, even to enforce a clear violation of the law. 

So, it&#039;s not really the inability of non-humans to speak in court that bothers me. It&#039;s the very limited ability of humans to speak on their behalf.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, this is the real trick, isn’t it? In the Prop 8 case, the state of California could have chosen to appeal the decision, and would have had clear standing to do so. And the standing of governments rests on different criteria from non-state entities; violation of its laws, loss of revenue, damage to things under its territorial jurisdiction, which is quite different from its property. </p>
<p>I’ll give a local example. In Philadelphia, it used to be the case that any taxpayer could bring a suit against anyone who’d violated zoning or building law. So if a developer decided to add an extra story to a building, or erect giant billboards in neighborhoods, there were clear ways for citizens to force them to comply with the law. A series of decisions pushed back standing to the point where if you can’t show that you materially suffer from a building violation — even if you’re on an adjacent property — you can’t bring a suit, even to enforce a clear violation of the law. </p>
<p>So, it’s not really the inability of non-humans to speak in court that bothers me. It’s the very limited ability of humans to speak on their behalf.</p>
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		<title>By: echan</title>
		<link>http://snarkmarket.com/2010/6050/comment-page-1#comment-12999</link>
		<dc:creator>echan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Aug 2010 00:43:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkmarket.com/?p=6050#comment-12999</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think that animals, landmarks, or the environment lack standing.  I think that different laws appoint different agents (oftentimes the government) to take up their causes in court, and sometimes these agents fail to do their job properly.

For instance, a landmark may be saved before the local historical rights board depending on citizens who lodge some sort of application to give the landmark protected status.

Or in the case of the environment, oftentimes, a municipality or state will go after a corporate entity that has polluted its territory.  The problem is what happens when the state&#039;s elected officials do not take advantage of their standing because of lobbying, political contributions, etc.

Standing should not be confused with the inability of non-humans to speak in court.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don’t think that animals, landmarks, or the environment lack standing.  I think that different laws appoint different agents (oftentimes the government) to take up their causes in court, and sometimes these agents fail to do their job properly.</p>
<p>For instance, a landmark may be saved before the local historical rights board depending on citizens who lodge some sort of application to give the landmark protected status.</p>
<p>Or in the case of the environment, oftentimes, a municipality or state will go after a corporate entity that has polluted its territory.  The problem is what happens when the state’s elected officials do not take advantage of their standing because of lobbying, political contributions, etc.</p>
<p>Standing should not be confused with the inability of non-humans to speak in court.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Carmody</title>
		<link>http://snarkmarket.com/2010/6050/comment-page-1#comment-12982</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Carmody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Aug 2010 12:09:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkmarket.com/?p=6050#comment-12982</guid>
		<description>Yeah, the big negative of standing is also its big positive -- it just shuts some discussions down before they can start. 

Keep in mind that as Bell uses it, it&#039;s descriptive, not prescriptive. (Obviously, Bell wishes that the rules of racial standing were different.) Determination of standing &lt;em&gt;happens&lt;/em&gt;, whether it ought to or not, both in court, on the air/in print, and in everyday discussion. 

This is a major source of frustration in debates about race. Sometimes, it&#039;s ludicrous, like when white people complain that they don&#039;t get to say &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqwj--wGEgY&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the n-word&lt;/a&gt;.&quot; (Please follow this link.) 

But I remember during Philly&#039;s last mayoral primary, there was a debate where one candidate (a black guy, Chaka Fattah) got in trouble for saying that another candidate (also black, Michael Nutter) needed to remind everybody that he was black. Basically, Nutter was asked something about civil rights violations with his proposal to bring NYC-style stop-and-frisk to Philly, and he started his answer with, something like &quot;Look, I&#039;m a black man; of course, I&#039;d be concerned. But...&quot; and defended it. Then Fattah said something like &quot;I&#039;m sorry you need to remind everyone you&#039;re black.&quot;

Now Nutter&#039;s a kind of nerdy, pro-business guy who represented a multiracial council district, and was the preferred candidate of most of the white professionals in the city. Fattah is also a brainy guy, US Congressman, but was based in West Philly and (at least then) was drawing most of his support from rank-and-file black Philadelphia. So it wasn&#039;t clear whether he was calling Nutter an Oreo sellout, or (and this is how they spun it later) trying to call Nutter out for using the &quot;I&#039;m black, I can&#039;t be racist&quot; defense. 

Anyways, as it happened, Fattah&#039;s staff went on the local politics blogs and tried to shut this discussion down. Basically, their position was, this is just one black man talking to another black man, calling him out the way black folks do -- for the love of god, white people, stop talking about it. The most vocal proponents of this position were Fattah&#039;s white staffers, some of whom helped run the main blog. &quot;White people have no right to talk about this.&quot; I thought this was bullshit, and said so, loudly and repeatedly.

Trying to cut off standing is always a rhetorical move. It&#039;s a lawyer&#039;s move. It&#039;s a power move. Sometimes it&#039;s legitimate, sometimes it isn&#039;t. Sometimes even when it&#039;s technically illegitimate it gets passed-off anyways. But you can&#039;t deny that it&#039;s really important.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, the big negative of standing is also its big positive — it just shuts some discussions down before they can start. </p>
<p>Keep in mind that as Bell uses it, it’s descriptive, not prescriptive. (Obviously, Bell wishes that the rules of racial standing were different.) Determination of standing <em>happens</em>, whether it ought to or not, both in court, on the air/in print, and in everyday discussion. </p>
<p>This is a major source of frustration in debates about race. Sometimes, it’s ludicrous, like when white people complain that they don’t get to say “<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqwj--wGEgY" rel="nofollow">the n-word</a>.” (Please follow this link.) </p>
<p>But I remember during Philly’s last mayoral primary, there was a debate where one candidate (a black guy, Chaka Fattah) got in trouble for saying that another candidate (also black, Michael Nutter) needed to remind everybody that he was black. Basically, Nutter was asked something about civil rights violations with his proposal to bring NYC-style stop-and-frisk to Philly, and he started his answer with, something like “Look, I’m a black man; of course, I’d be concerned. But…” and defended it. Then Fattah said something like “I’m sorry you need to remind everyone you’re black.”</p>
<p>Now Nutter’s a kind of nerdy, pro-business guy who represented a multiracial council district, and was the preferred candidate of most of the white professionals in the city. Fattah is also a brainy guy, US Congressman, but was based in West Philly and (at least then) was drawing most of his support from rank-and-file black Philadelphia. So it wasn’t clear whether he was calling Nutter an Oreo sellout, or (and this is how they spun it later) trying to call Nutter out for using the “I’m black, I can’t be racist” defense. </p>
<p>Anyways, as it happened, Fattah’s staff went on the local politics blogs and tried to shut this discussion down. Basically, their position was, this is just one black man talking to another black man, calling him out the way black folks do — for the love of god, white people, stop talking about it. The most vocal proponents of this position were Fattah’s white staffers, some of whom helped run the main blog. “White people have no right to talk about this.” I thought this was bullshit, and said so, loudly and repeatedly.</p>
<p>Trying to cut off standing is always a rhetorical move. It’s a lawyer’s move. It’s a power move. Sometimes it’s legitimate, sometimes it isn’t. Sometimes even when it’s technically illegitimate it gets passed-off anyways. But you can’t deny that it’s really important.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul E.</title>
		<link>http://snarkmarket.com/2010/6050/comment-page-1#comment-12966</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul E.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Aug 2010 02:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkmarket.com/?p=6050#comment-12966</guid>
		<description>I like this blog. I learned something about legal standing.

One comment though:
I think expanding standing for  the example of group affiliation like race can be taken too far. Because people can just say &quot;You have no standing, your argument holds no/less merit because you don&#039;t belong to this group regardless of your logic and reasoning.&quot; If the litmus test of whether a thesis can be proven true or not is based on the -source- rather than the -logic- and -evidence- then I think it&#039;s not in the spirit of Occam&#039;s Razor anymore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like this blog. I learned something about legal standing.</p>
<p>One comment though:<br />
I think expanding standing for  the example of group affiliation like race can be taken too far. Because people can just say “You have no standing, your argument holds no/less merit because you don’t belong to this group regardless of your logic and reasoning.” If the litmus test of whether a thesis can be proven true or not is based on the –source– rather than the –logic– and –evidence– then I think it’s not in the spirit of Occam’s Razor anymore.</p>
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		<title>By: Suzanne</title>
		<link>http://snarkmarket.com/2010/6050/comment-page-1#comment-12962</link>
		<dc:creator>Suzanne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:43:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkmarket.com/?p=6050#comment-12962</guid>
		<description>A powerful concept.  Archimedes, for instance, said that he could move the earth with a lever if he only had a place to stand...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A powerful concept.  Archimedes, for instance, said that he could move the earth with a lever if he only had a place to stand…</p>
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		<title>By: Saheli</title>
		<link>http://snarkmarket.com/2010/6050/comment-page-1#comment-12961</link>
		<dc:creator>Saheli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:47:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkmarket.com/?p=6050#comment-12961</guid>
		<description>I couldn&#039;t quite follow the Derrick Bell quotes, but this part is always interesting to me:

&lt;i&gt;More neb­u­lous kinds of dam­age, like harm done to ani­mals, the envi­ron­ment, or land­marks, give you fewer places to stand.&lt;/i&gt;

and sort of bothersome. The general public interest--or the interest held on behalf of those who cannot stand for themselves--is obviously easily abused, but that doesn&#039;t mean it doesn&#039;t exist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I couldn’t quite follow the Derrick Bell quotes, but this part is always interesting to me:</p>
<p><i>More neb­u­lous kinds of dam­age, like harm done to ani­mals, the envi­ron­ment, or land­marks, give you fewer places to stand.</i></p>
<p>and sort of bothersome. The general public interest–or the interest held on behalf of those who cannot stand for themselves–is obviously easily abused, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.</p>
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		<title>By: Saheli</title>
		<link>http://snarkmarket.com/2010/6050/comment-page-1#comment-12960</link>
		<dc:creator>Saheli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:42:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkmarket.com/?p=6050#comment-12960</guid>
		<description>I saw an interesting line on some blog, I wish I could remember which, about how all law enforcement and military and judiciary was not, actually, sworn to defend the people, but sworn to defend the constitution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I saw an interesting line on some blog, I wish I could remember which, about how all law enforcement and military and judiciary was not, actually, sworn to defend the people, but sworn to defend the constitution.</p>
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