<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Reading and the Panda’s Thumb</title>
	<atom:link href="http://snarkmarket.com/2009/4303/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://snarkmarket.com/2009/4303</link>
	<description>The stomping grounds of Tim Carmody, Robin Sloan and Matt Thompson. It&#039;s a long-running conversation about media, journalism, technology, cities, culture, design, books, music, movies, the future and the past.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2012 18:20:47 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tim Maly</title>
		<link>http://snarkmarket.com/2009/4303/comment-page-1#comment-7480</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Maly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 08:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkmarket.com/?p=4303#comment-7480</guid>
		<description>Reading about how the brain reads is always one of those weird recursive experiences that makes me feel vaguely drunk or like I&#039;m in an elevator with mirrors on all sides.

The part about there being a limited number of strokes for making letters made me think about &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.vimeo.com/groups/23584/videos/3869237&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this video&lt;/a&gt; of Claude Closky&#039;s 100-letter Alphabet. The 26 we know plus 74 new letters that in their way look weirdly familiar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reading about how the brain reads is always one of those weird recursive experiences that makes me feel vaguely drunk or like I’m in an elevator with mirrors on all sides.</p>
<p>The part about there being a limited number of strokes for making letters made me think about <a href="http://www.vimeo.com/groups/23584/videos/3869237" rel="nofollow">this video</a> of Claude Closky’s 100-letter Alphabet. The 26 we know plus 74 new letters that in their way look weirdly familiar.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tim Maly</title>
		<link>http://snarkmarket.com/2009/4303/comment-page-1#comment-7479</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Maly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 08:31:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkmarket.com/?p=4303#comment-7479</guid>
		<description>If you liked that stuff about the brain&#039;s ability to recycle neurons, you&#039;ll probably LOVE this WIRED article from August 2001 http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.08/assist_pr.html

&lt;blockquote&gt;When you think disability, free yourself from the sob-story crap, all the oversize shrieking about people praying for miracles and walking again, or triumphing against the odds. Instead, think puppets. At a basic level, physical disability is really just a form of puppetry. If you&#039;ve ever marveled at how someone can bring a smudged sock puppet to life or talked back to Elmo and Grover, then intellectually you&#039;re nearly there. Puppetry is the original brain-machine interface. It entertains because it shows you how this interface can be ported to different platforms.

If puppetry is the clever mapping of human characteristics onto a nonhuman object, then disability is the same mapping onto a still-human object. Making the body work regardless of physical deficit is not a challenge I would wish on anyone, but getting good at being disabled is like discovering an alternative platform. It&#039;s closer to puppetry than anything else I can think of. I should know: I&#039;ve been at it for 25 years. I have lots of moving parts. Two of them are not my legs. When you think John Hockenberry, think wheelchair. Think alternative platform. Think puppet.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you liked that stuff about the brain’s ability to recycle neurons, you’ll probably LOVE this WIRED article from August 2001 <a href="http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.08/assist_pr.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.08/assist_pr.html</a></p>
<blockquote><p>When you think disability, free yourself from the sob-story crap, all the oversize shrieking about people praying for miracles and walking again, or triumphing against the odds. Instead, think puppets. At a basic level, physical disability is really just a form of puppetry. If you’ve ever marveled at how someone can bring a smudged sock puppet to life or talked back to Elmo and Grover, then intellectually you’re nearly there. Puppetry is the original brain-machine interface. It entertains because it shows you how this interface can be ported to different platforms.</p>
<p>If puppetry is the clever mapping of human characteristics onto a nonhuman object, then disability is the same mapping onto a still-human object. Making the body work regardless of physical deficit is not a challenge I would wish on anyone, but getting good at being disabled is like discovering an alternative platform. It’s closer to puppetry than anything else I can think of. I should know: I’ve been at it for 25 years. I have lots of moving parts. Two of them are not my legs. When you think John Hockenberry, think wheelchair. Think alternative platform. Think puppet.</p></blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: fake TV</title>
		<link>http://snarkmarket.com/2009/4303/comment-page-1#comment-7458</link>
		<dc:creator>fake TV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 06:17:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkmarket.com/?p=4303#comment-7458</guid>
		<description>The &quot;global workspace theory of consciousness&quot; sounds so web 2.0.... so cloud computing...  I wonder if our understanding of our own minds will only evolve as fast as our own vocabulary for metaphor. 

Also, great post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The “global workspace theory of consciousness” sounds so web 2.0.… so cloud computing…  I wonder if our understanding of our own minds will only evolve as fast as our own vocabulary for metaphor. </p>
<p>Also, great post.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://snarkmarket.com/2009/4303/comment-page-1#comment-7410</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 05:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkmarket.com/?p=4303#comment-7410</guid>
		<description>Right - because the real story is &quot;all this adaptation happened WITHOUT honest-to-goodness genetic evolution! And that&#039;s why it&#039;s so amazing!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right — because the real story is “all this adaptation happened WITHOUT honest-to-goodness genetic evolution! And that’s why it’s so amazing!”</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://snarkmarket.com/2009/4303/comment-page-1#comment-7406</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 03:51:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkmarket.com/?p=4303#comment-7406</guid>
		<description>No, I agree; as a historical/cultural/social story it&#039;s certainly interesting.  But there&#039;s not much biology/neuroscience there.  And what is there is just intriguing conjecture; there&#039;s no evidence.  The impact of visual/motor neurobiology on this development process seems to be overplayed.  The use of evolutionary vocabulary is also confusing/misleading.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I agree; as a historical/cultural/social story it’s certainly interesting.  But there’s not much biology/neuroscience there.  And what is there is just intriguing conjecture; there’s no evidence.  The impact of visual/motor neurobiology on this development process seems to be overplayed.  The use of evolutionary vocabulary is also confusing/misleading.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tim Carmody</title>
		<link>http://snarkmarket.com/2009/4303/comment-page-1#comment-7395</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Carmody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:09:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkmarket.com/?p=4303#comment-7395</guid>
		<description>Hmm -- if writing has generally evolved from ease of reading towards ease of writing, wouldn&#039;t that make sense as a narrative of the education (I won&#039;t say &quot;evolution&quot; of the letterbox part of the visual cortex)? Initially, writing needs to be highly readable, and specifically needs to bear a close resemblance to those iconic natural shapes that trigger our recognition mechanisms. 

However, over time, as literacy education increases and cultures become more used to the recognition of these characters (with maybe -- maybe -- some evolutionary/socialrealpolitik advantage given to those whose &quot;letterbox&quot; portions of the cortex prove especially adaptable), the characters become more abstract, driven more by ease/simplicity of script than mimetic readability? 

There&#039;s also a social evolution here: when writing is the specialized province of scribes (with reading, even in a limited sense, perhaps slightly more common), then script can afford to be highly complex. The pressures of teaching more and more people who are not necessarily specialists - Phoenician merchants, let&#039;s say - creates a pressure (not evolutionary in a biological sense, but socially, sure) to simplify characters, if only to make them easier to teach. 

Just a thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm — if writing has generally evolved from ease of reading towards ease of writing, wouldn’t that make sense as a narrative of the education (I won’t say “evolution” of the letterbox part of the visual cortex)? Initially, writing needs to be highly readable, and specifically needs to bear a close resemblance to those iconic natural shapes that trigger our recognition mechanisms. </p>
<p>However, over time, as literacy education increases and cultures become more used to the recognition of these characters (with maybe — maybe — some evolutionary/socialrealpolitik advantage given to those whose “letterbox” portions of the cortex prove especially adaptable), the characters become more abstract, driven more by ease/simplicity of script than mimetic readability? </p>
<p>There’s also a social evolution here: when writing is the specialized province of scribes (with reading, even in a limited sense, perhaps slightly more common), then script can afford to be highly complex. The pressures of teaching more and more people who are not necessarily specialists — Phoenician merchants, let’s say — creates a pressure (not evolutionary in a biological sense, but socially, sure) to simplify characters, if only to make them easier to teach. </p>
<p>Just a thought.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://snarkmarket.com/2009/4303/comment-page-1#comment-7389</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 15:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkmarket.com/?p=4303#comment-7389</guid>
		<description>Wow, yeah I like culture as the next level above individual writing for even greater long-term holding of ideas and sharing of them over domains.  Like when a movement like Impressionism spreads from visual art to music.

This short story idea is great and I know this guy who would probably do a great job writing it too...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, yeah I like culture as the next level above individual writing for even greater long-term holding of ideas and sharing of them over domains.  Like when a movement like Impressionism spreads from visual art to music.</p>
<p>This short story idea is great and I know this guy who would probably do a great job writing it too…</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://snarkmarket.com/2009/4303/comment-page-1#comment-7388</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 15:13:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkmarket.com/?p=4303#comment-7388</guid>
		<description>Overall good, interesting stuff.  The workspace model of consciousness is a nice idea, and one can definitely run with the idea of writing as a way of extending that workspace even farther; there are so many things you can&#039;t properly think through without a pen and paper (or a keyboard) nowadays.

Not such a big deal, but I have to take issue with:
&lt;blockquote&gt;For instance, the neu­ro­sci­en­tists Marc Changizi and Shin­suke Shi­mojo have demon­strated that the vast major­ity of char­ac­ters in 115 dif­fer­ent writ­ing sys­tems are com­posed of three dis­tinct strokes, which likely reflect the sen­sory lim­i­ta­tions of cells in the retina.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is apparently Lehrer interpreting Deheane interpretating the &lt;a href=&quot;http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/272/1560/267.abstract&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;original&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/502806&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;papers&lt;/a&gt;.  Unfortunately it&#039;s a rather gross mis -interpretation/-representation.  There is no evidence in these papers that the number of strokes used in written characters is constrained by the visual system.  The authors do make the wild (but interesting) conjecture that this reflects constraints in the wiring of visual/association cortex, but they don&#039;t say anything about the retina, and as a retinal scientist I would say the idea that the retina constrains characters to 3 strokes is highly implausible (in so many words: wrong).  I wonder whether Deheane/Lehrer&#039;s mistaken reference to the retina is due to not understanding that the word &quot;retinotopic&quot; refers to cortical areas.

Overall I don&#039;t find this line of work on the &quot;evolution&quot; of writing systems very compelling.  The authors waffle a bit about what they mean by &quot;evolution&quot;, although they certainly co-opt a lot of the classic vocabulary like &quot;selection pressures&quot;.  These papers provide no data on any profound inner workings of the eye/brain.  The data go no farther than &quot;writing systems: probably optimized for readability and writability, maybe more for readability&quot;.  If these authors really wanted to make a point about &quot;selection pressures&quot; on the development of writing, they ought to have looked at changes in writing systems over time, but they haven&#039;t as far as I can see.  What little I know about the evolution of Chinese characters suggests that the opposite is true: more change has occurred over time to optimize writing ease than reading ease.  Furthermore, I suspect that if you ran their analysis on ancient versus modern Chinese characters, you would find no increase in optimization for shapes common in the visual world.  

Perhaps the authors&#039; arguments are supposed to apply to earlier periods in the development of writing, but at least for Chinese/Egyptian characters their argument then becomes a ridiculous tautology: &quot;very early characters have a lot of features in common with objects in the natural world&quot; (my version of what this argument would look like, not a real quote from them).  Okay guys, but they&#039;re &lt;strong&gt;pictograms&lt;/strong&gt;...  (Obviously there are more subtleties here, like the huge visual difference between natural objects and line drawings of natural objects, but the authors don&#039;t seem to have given this much attention.)

Finally, as an aside, I&#039;m going to follow &lt;a href=&quot;http://fora.tv/2008/08/18/Kenneth_Miller_on_Evolution_and_Intelligent_Design&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Kenneth Miller&lt;/a&gt; and mention that the ultimate &quot;Panda&#039;s Thumb&quot; for human evolution is probably &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chromosome_2_%28human%29&amp;oldid=305895064#Evolution&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Human Chromosome 2&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Overall good, interesting stuff.  The workspace model of consciousness is a nice idea, and one can definitely run with the idea of writing as a way of extending that workspace even farther; there are so many things you can’t properly think through without a pen and paper (or a keyboard) nowadays.</p>
<p>Not such a big deal, but I have to take issue with:</p>
<blockquote><p>For instance, the neu­ro­sci­en­tists Marc Changizi and Shin­suke Shi­mojo have demon­strated that the vast major­ity of char­ac­ters in 115 dif­fer­ent writ­ing sys­tems are com­posed of three dis­tinct strokes, which likely reflect the sen­sory lim­i­ta­tions of cells in the retina.</p></blockquote>
<p>This is apparently Lehrer interpreting Deheane interpretating the <a href="http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/272/1560/267.abstract" rel="nofollow">original</a> <a href="http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/502806" rel="nofollow">papers</a>.  Unfortunately it’s a rather gross mis –interpretation/-representation.  There is no evidence in these papers that the number of strokes used in written characters is constrained by the visual system.  The authors do make the wild (but interesting) conjecture that this reflects constraints in the wiring of visual/association cortex, but they don’t say anything about the retina, and as a retinal scientist I would say the idea that the retina constrains characters to 3 strokes is highly implausible (in so many words: wrong).  I wonder whether Deheane/Lehrer’s mistaken reference to the retina is due to not understanding that the word “retinotopic” refers to cortical areas.</p>
<p>Overall I don’t find this line of work on the “evolution” of writing systems very compelling.  The authors waffle a bit about what they mean by “evolution”, although they certainly co-opt a lot of the classic vocabulary like “selection pressures”.  These papers provide no data on any profound inner workings of the eye/brain.  The data go no farther than “writing systems: probably optimized for readability and writability, maybe more for readability”.  If these authors really wanted to make a point about “selection pressures” on the development of writing, they ought to have looked at changes in writing systems over time, but they haven’t as far as I can see.  What little I know about the evolution of Chinese characters suggests that the opposite is true: more change has occurred over time to optimize writing ease than reading ease.  Furthermore, I suspect that if you ran their analysis on ancient versus modern Chinese characters, you would find no increase in optimization for shapes common in the visual world.  </p>
<p>Perhaps the authors’ arguments are supposed to apply to earlier periods in the development of writing, but at least for Chinese/Egyptian characters their argument then becomes a ridiculous tautology: “very early characters have a lot of features in common with objects in the natural world” (my version of what this argument would look like, not a real quote from them).  Okay guys, but they’re <strong>pictograms</strong>…  (Obviously there are more subtleties here, like the huge visual difference between natural objects and line drawings of natural objects, but the authors don’t seem to have given this much attention.)</p>
<p>Finally, as an aside, I’m going to follow <a href="http://fora.tv/2008/08/18/Kenneth_Miller_on_Evolution_and_Intelligent_Design" rel="nofollow">Kenneth Miller</a> and mention that the ultimate “Panda’s Thumb” for human evolution is probably <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chromosome_2_%28human%29&amp;oldid=305895064#Evolution" rel="nofollow">Human Chromosome 2</a>.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Matthew Battles</title>
		<link>http://snarkmarket.com/2009/4303/comment-page-1#comment-7378</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Battles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 05:13:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkmarket.com/?p=4303#comment-7378</guid>
		<description>The letter A is the head of an ox upturned, horns now pointing down—like in the Buddhist parable, the ox got lost in the world of sensible things (in which the garden of letters is to be found).

I&#039;ve had that Changizi paper Dehaene cites (about natural shapes &amp; written characters) on my desk for two years! It&#039;s deep in the DNA of Urge of the Letter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The letter A is the head of an ox upturned, horns now pointing down—like in the Buddhist parable, the ox got lost in the world of sensible things (in which the garden of letters is to be found).</p>
<p>I’ve had that Changizi paper Dehaene cites (about natural shapes &amp; written characters) on my desk for two years! It’s deep in the DNA of Urge of the Letter.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tim Carmody</title>
		<link>http://snarkmarket.com/2009/4303/comment-page-1#comment-7377</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Carmody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 05:13:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkmarket.com/?p=4303#comment-7377</guid>
		<description>Halle Berry fires many, many neurons for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Halle Berry fires many, many neurons for me.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

